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Mount Pleasant DC Forum
Discussion about the Mount Pleasant Neighborhood
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happypeople
Joined: 25 Sep 2011
Posts: 2
Location: Mt. Pleasant
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 Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:08 pm Post subject: Question from a relative newcomer |
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We've only been here 14 years. I've been reading this forum for a long time but never participated. I notice that no-one ever posts anything specific about what bothers them except for people drinking, peeing and pooping everywhere.
For example -
I'm peeved that my young daughter is sexually propositioned every time she takes a solo trip to Mt. P street.
I'm frustrated that my wife was offered 'the big one' while she was 8 months pregnant and pushing a stroller.
I don't like the fact that a fella with excrement and piss all over him tried to pat my six year old on the head. |
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jack
Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Posts: 4399
Location: 19th & Lamont
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:57 am Post subject: Lamont Park problems |
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| TJinMtP wrote: |
We CAN permanently rid our neighborhood of the blight of public drinking and disorder seen lately, and we SHOULD. The persistence of underlying social problems does not mean the criminal manifestations of those problems should be tolerated. That would be corrosive to public order, and no favor to the drunks. For this, law enforcement is essential. And it is fully compatible with a systemic response to the complex underlying problems.
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This is what we've wanted foot patrol officers for: to have someone on hand to tell badly behaved people to stop what they're doing and behave acceptably. Nothing less than immediate, on-site supervision will accomplish that.
The problem with "arrest" as a strategy is in what follows an arrest. The city doesn't put POCA offenders in jail. So if the offenders aren't deterred by the threat of arrest, and the offenders shortly after arrest are just put back on the street, what's the value of it?
As I've told the MPD many times, disorderly conduct, and unpleasant behavior in public places, is the problem that most directly afflicts residents in their daily lives. But the MPD brass prefers to concentrate police resources on more serious crimes, such as burglary and robbery.
BTW, the PSA 301 meeting is this Wednesday, 7 pm, La Casa Community Center.
-- Jack |
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TJinMtP
Joined: 15 Jul 2011
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: Lamont Park problems |
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| jack wrote: | | This is what we've wanted foot patrol officers for: to have someone on hand to tell badly behaved people to stop what they're doing and behave acceptably. Nothing less than immediate, on-site supervision will accomplish that. |
Are you proposing anything?? If it's just that we add foot patrols, then I'm all for it, provided that we do not request them as an alternative to other law enforcement activities. Strong police presence could be helpful to a range of problems. Why don't you propose a plan?
But if you're suggesting that we discourage the MPD from arresting drunks who commit criminal violations, then sorry, I for one am not going to let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
While you've been asserting that only your ideas will work, Commander Kishter has been following up on a commitment he made to residents to remedy the problem. According to some who live nearby the park, his effort's already achieving positive results. We should be supportive of these efforts. The MPD should determine how to police criminal problems. As residents, we should hold the MPD accountable for their results, and urge further steps when the results are inadequate.
Ineffectual naysaying is hard for anyone to take seriously -- especially when no effective measures were underway before. So propose something positive that will build upon what's already working. |
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jack
Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Posts: 4399
Location: 19th & Lamont
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:16 pm Post subject: Lamont Park problems |
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| The PSA 301 meeting is at 7 pm this evening, 3166 Mt Pleasant Street. This is your chance to speak to Lt Pate and Sgt Harris about your complaints. -- Jack |
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TJinMtP
Joined: 15 Jul 2011
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:50 pm Post subject: Re: Lamont Park problems |
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| jack wrote: | | The PSA 301 meeting is at 7 pm this evening, 3166 Mt Pleasant Street. This is your chance to speak to Lt Pate and Sgt Harris about your complaints. -- Jack |
Thanks, Jack, for sharing information about this meeting. It was the first such meeting that I've attended in Mt. Pleasant and I'm glad that I went. I glad even though there were hardly any residents there -- or perhaps because of that fact.
In fact, Jack and I might have been the only residents. There was a representative from Jim Graham's office, and a representative from the Mayor's office. There was a program director from Neighbors Consejo, and the director of the library (who lives in Takoma Park). And of course there was Lt. Micah Pate and several MPD officers.
I stated that the lack of attendance does not reflect a lack of concern about the issue. I noted that few of us can make it to such meetings.
There was no disagreement that police intervention should be part of the response to the public drinking and disorder discussed here. I stated that public drinking is not just a difficult social problem; it is also a problem with criminal manifestations that have a major impact on the lives of residents, and must be enforced against. Lt. Pate acknowledged this and no one disagreed.
Milton Sanchez, Program Director for Neighbors Consejo, shared information about social services available from his organization and the city. Clearly these services -- ranging from shelters to mental health to substance abuse -- are essential.
It remains unclear to me how the drunks in our neighborhood can be effectively enlisted for these services. If Neighbors Consejo has been actively reaching out to the drunks, then clearly something further is required.
Milton shared a pamphlet with contact details for more than a dozen service providers, but it's still not clear how much value this information will be to me. I'm unlikely to personally urge a drunk in the neighborhood to seek counselling for substance abuse. (Not only am I disinclined to involve myself this way; I also do not speak Spanish.)
I asked Lt. Pate and Milton of Consejo whom a resident should call in a few different scenarios:
(1) Someone is urinating in the park.
(2) Someone is drunk and acting aggressive on Mt. Pleasant St.
(3) Someone is drinking in Lamont Park.
In each of these cases, Lt. Pate and Milton were in agreement that I should call the police. I asked them for a scenario under which I could call Neighbors Consejo instead, and Milton offered the example of a drunk harmlessly passed out on the street. Noted. But for most of the activities discussed here, it appears that the police are the right solution.
There was some useful discussion about the need to reclaim our public spaces. Lt. Pate stated that zero tolerance policing is effective temporarily, but that it is police visibility that works long-term. Although we do in fact have foot patrols in Mt. Pleasant during parts of the day, this is evidently not enough visibility to counter the drinking and disorder.
Lt. Pate made encouraging remarks about the commitment of MPD to address the problem, and he stated his belief that they have begun to make a difference. But he was also realistic that the police cannot by themselves solve the problem.
Finally, two potentially useful actions came out of the meeting:
1. Lt. Pate helpfully suggested that neighborhood groups and churches consider holding activities in the park to augment police visibility. The representative from the Mayor's office offered to check whether he could help in this regard.
2. Lt. Pate agreed to speak with the proprietors of area liquor stores about selling alcohol to the known drunks. This followed statements by the other officers that they believed the drunks are buying from all of the liquor stores on Mt. Pleasant St.
It seems to me that enlisting groups and individuals in the Latino community who know the drunks to help steer them toward the shelter and social services would be a great help. Unfortunately, there was not much discussion about this. |
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jack
Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Posts: 4399
Location: 19th & Lamont
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:10 am Post subject: Re: Lamont Park problems |
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| TJinMtP wrote: |
Thanks, Jack, for sharing information about this meeting. It was the first such meeting that I've attended in Mt. Pleasant and I'm glad that I went. I glad even though there were hardly any residents there -- or perhaps because of that fact.
In fact, Jack and I might have been the only residents. |
This is generally the case for PSA 301 meetings: almost no residents. That TJ came made a tremendous differences, providing a fine dialog between resident and police concerning a neighborhood problem. If he hadn't come, nothing so useful would have happened. (I don't count as a resident, being there on behalf of the ANC. The other resident was our friend Rosa, who just happened by, and wasn't there to talk about the POCA problem. So TJ's presence was essential, and vital.)
I wish more residents would come. These PSA meetings are for dialog between the police and the residents. It helps the police to get a resident's view of what's going on in the neighborhood, and it's good for residents to get the police view of what can and cannot be done about neighborhood issues.
-- Jack |
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tyc1980
Joined: 23 Aug 2010
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:08 pm Post subject: Argyle Convenient Store Still Selling to Lamont Park Drunks |
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| Just witnessed what several people have described on this forum: The soberest (and I use that term loosely) of the Lamont Park drunks gathers money from his drinking buddies, then walks into the Argyle to buy himself and his buddies a few drinks while his buddies wait just outside the front door of the store harrassing passing women and yelling homophobic remarks at each other. (The one who always carries one crutch is a real charmer). The purchaser walks out of the store, the buddies divvy up the purchases, and they walk back over the park together to continue the party. The Argyle's owners and their neighborhood fans continue to defend the store, but they are still selling alcohol to the drunks. |
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citizenchunk
Joined: 16 Nov 2011
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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I registered for this forum to specifically post on this thread. I live on the square and have also noticed an increase in the frequency (and volume) of the drunks in Lamont Park. But it isn't localized to the park; there is a yard behind Samber, onto an alley that is adjacent to my building, that is host to a daily congregation of drunks. They hang out almost every day, from morning till night, standing around, drinking and yelling at each other. I call it "The Gentlemen's Club".
At any given moment when I am looking out my window in the direction of the Gentlemen's Club, there is a very high probability that I will see someone peeing in the yard, usually up against the house it belongs to. The owners/occupants seem to tolerate this, if not encourage it. I can't tell whether they are members of the Gentlemen's Club.
I have just written to Councilman Graham about this, though I doubt this will accomplish anything. |
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TJinMtP
Joined: 15 Jul 2011
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| citizenchunk wrote: | I registered for this forum to specifically post on this thread. I live on the square and have also noticed an increase in the frequency (and volume) of the drunks in Lamont Park. But it isn't localized to the park; there is a yard behind Samber, onto an alley that is adjacent to my building, that is host to a daily congregation of drunks. They hang out almost every day, from morning till night, standing around, drinking and yelling at each other. I call it "The Gentlemen's Club".
At any given moment when I am looking out my window in the direction of the Gentlemen's Club, there is a very high probability that I will see someone peeing in the yard, usually up against the house it belongs to. The owners/occupants seem to tolerate this, if not encourage it. I can't tell whether they are members of the Gentlemen's Club.
I have just written to Councilman Graham about this, though I doubt this will accomplish anything. |
Public drinking is prohibited for a reason, and if it's causing you a problem, then you should never hesitate to bring it to the attention of law enforcement.
The lieutenant for our PSA is Micah Pate, and he has been very responsive to complaints of residents that public drinking and disorder is a significant problem that requires attention. I strongly recommend that you email him at [email address removed - log in to view].
Alcoholism and homelessness are very, very difficult problems, but never let anyone tell you that such "Gentlemen's Clubs" are inevitable in our neighborhood. Park by park, yard by yard, we can force the inveterate drunks to take their party -- and associated disorder -- somewhere else. |
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jack
Joined: 23 Mar 2004
Posts: 4399
Location: 19th & Lamont
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 1:49 pm Post subject: Public disorder |
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| TJinMtP wrote: | | Alcoholism and homelessness are very, very difficult problems, but never let anyone tell you that such "Gentlemen's Clubs" are inevitable in our neighborhood. Park by park, yard by yard, we can force the inveterate drunks to take their party -- and associated disorder -- somewhere else. |
Is making such men "take their party . . . somewhere else" a suitable solution to the problem? I can understand why residents plagued with such problems would be content to see the problem go "somewhere else", but "somewhere else" just means some other person's neighborhood. I don't think it's right to solve one resident's problem by shoving it into some other resident's neighborhood.
Certainly we on the ANC have to do better than that, given that we're sworn to judge matters according to what's best for "the District, as a whole".
-- Jack |
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Jennrgolden
Joined: 21 Jan 2006
Posts: 261
Location: Newton St
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: Public disorder |
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| jack wrote: | | TJinMtP wrote: | | Alcoholism and homelessness are very, very difficult problems, but never let anyone tell you that such "Gentlemen's Clubs" are inevitable in our neighborhood. Park by park, yard by yard, we can force the inveterate drunks to take their party -- and associated disorder -- somewhere else. |
Is making such men "take their party . . . somewhere else" a suitable solution to the problem? I can understand why residents plagued with such problems would be content to see the problem go "somewhere else", but "somewhere else" just means some other person's neighborhood. I don't think it's right to solve one resident's problem by shoving it into some other resident's neighborhood.
Certainly we on the ANC have to do better than that, given that we're sworn to judge matters according to what's best for "the District, as a whole".
-- Jack |
that's a grand notion ... to solve the problem... but as someone who has walked down our street with my 2 year old in tow and had these drunks fall on top of my little boy (the drunks were fighting at the time) I say with unabashed anger....so let it be someone else's problem and get them the hell away from me and my kids. If we want to solve the problem, fine, would love to see if solved...but I've never witnessed the problem solved. any solution you may have would be long term and if it keeps them from drinking in our neighborhood by being arrested...good. They should be arrested - it's illegal and wrong and I don't won't live with it anymore. Don't tell me "that's city life and if you can't stomach it, move"... I've stayed through gun shots in my windows, cracked-out druggies on my doorstep, and burglarized cars...these drunks will not make me go...they, like the druggies and burglars must go.
That was my rant...straight from the heart...I'll go back to "lurking" on this board and let all the nay-sayers rip apart my remarks.
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- Jenn |
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maq1
Joined: 07 Jul 2011
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 4:55 pm Post subject: Re: Public disorder |
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| Jennrgolden wrote: |
that's a grand notion ... to solve the problem... but as someone who has walked down our street with my 2 year old in tow and had these drunks fall on top of my little boy (the drunks were fighting at the time) I say with unabashed anger....so let it be someone else's problem and get them the hell away from me and my kids. If we want to solve the problem, fine, would love to see if solved...but I've never witnessed the problem solved. any solution you may have would be long term and if it keeps them from drinking in our neighborhood by being arrested...good. They should be arrested - it's illegal and wrong and I don't won't live with it anymore. Don't tell me "that's city life and if you can't stomach it, move"... I've stayed through gun shots in my windows, cracked-out druggies on my doorstep, and burglarized cars...these drunks will not make me go...they, like the druggies and burglars must go.
That was my rant...straight from the heart...I'll go back to "lurking" on this board and let all the nay-sayers rip apart my remarks. |
Amen to that... Thanks for this post. I agree completely. |
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TJinMtP
Joined: 15 Jul 2011
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 5:59 pm Post subject: Re: Public disorder |
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| jack wrote: | | TJinMtP wrote: | | Alcoholism and homelessness are very, very difficult problems, but never let anyone tell you that such "Gentlemen's Clubs" are inevitable in our neighborhood. Park by park, yard by yard, we can force the inveterate drunks to take their party -- and associated disorder -- somewhere else. |
Is making such men "take their party . . . somewhere else" a suitable solution to the problem? I can understand why residents plagued with such problems would be content to see the problem go "somewhere else", but "somewhere else" just means some other person's neighborhood. I don't think it's right to solve one resident's problem by shoving it into some other resident's neighborhood.
Certainly we on the ANC have to do better than that, given that we're sworn to judge matters according to what's best for "the District, as a whole".
-- Jack |
Disingenuous. You don't check out the worse intersections and deeper potholes elsewhere before supporting remedies to those kinds of problems in Mt. Pleasant. It's abundantly clear that you have little sympathy on this. You've advocated for providing a beer garden for these drunks, for heavens' sake. You're a nice person, Jack, with civic values second to none. But on this issue, no one who regards public drunkenness and disorder as a problem in our neighborhood should take anything you say on the subject seriously.
Public drunkenness and associated crime is a problem that seriously affects the lives of many Mt. Pleasant residents. It's up to each one of us to ensure that it receives the attention necessary to curb it. We absolutely can change this state of affairs, and I'm confident that we will. |
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TJinMtP
Joined: 15 Jul 2011
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:05 pm Post subject: Re: Public disorder |
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| Jennrgolden wrote: | that's a grand notion ... to solve the problem... but as someone who has walked down our street with my 2 year old in tow and had these drunks fall on top of my little boy (the drunks were fighting at the time) I say with unabashed anger....so let it be someone else's problem and get them the hell away from me and my kids. If we want to solve the problem, fine, would love to see if solved...but I've never witnessed the problem solved. any solution you may have would be long term and if it keeps them from drinking in our neighborhood by being arrested...good. They should be arrested - it's illegal and wrong and I don't won't live with it anymore. Don't tell me "that's city life and if you can't stomach it, move"... I've stayed through gun shots in my windows, cracked-out druggies on my doorstep, and burglarized cars...these drunks will not make me go...they, like the druggies and burglars must go.
That was my rant...straight from the heart...I'll go back to "lurking" on this board and let all the nay-sayers rip apart my remarks. |
Bravo! |
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jsfreed
Joined: 04 Apr 2004
Posts: 161
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| Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Maybe we're going about this the wrong way. Treating alcoholism is clearly the solution for the individuals in the park, but that's way beyond our capabilities or the capabilities of the ANC. So, in lieu of that, it seems to me that part of the reason the park is attractive to the drunks is it's usually empty. How can we make it more attractive to the neighborhood and less attractive to the drunks? Could we get food market there on days the farmer's market isn't? have Don Juan and other restaurants use the space? a skate park? |
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